May have a job opportunity.

[SkepDoc 3.0]

Ever since I was in massage school, my teacher has griped and moaned about a business in a neighboring city. We'll call it Pat's. Pat's is a legit business, a very popular one, but the thing is, the owner is like a Nazi and treats her therapists poorly (from what I hear.) They may be looking for someone to work there at the moment, my friend just got a job there starting today, and they may be looking for one more. I sent in a resume just in case, because I want to leave the option open. Here's the deal.First 3 months I would start out as in IC. Part of the contract states that while working there, I cannot have an office anywhere else. I can work ONLY at Pat's. (I can probably still do chair gigs, she'll never know the difference). I also have to wear their uniforms, no big deal.After the first 3 months, I will be an employee. They have 401k, take out taxes, the whole shebang. I have to work a schedule that they set, and working saturdays is on a rotating schedule. I don't mind working Saturdays, but I like having the option to take Saturday off and spending time with my partner. If I ever decide to leave there and try to find employment elsewhere, part of the contract that I will have to sign states that I cannot work as a massage therapist in the area for a whole year after my departure! I didn't realize she could do this, still not sure if she can or not, but either way, that's rediculous.Here's the good part. There is A LOT of opportunity to work; if you go in and say you can do 6 massages a day, they WILL get you 6 massages a day. They have a LOT of advertising and have no trouble getting clients.So this is where I'm stuck. I'd really like to maintain my own business and eventually get a spa up and running, but on the other hand I could really use the money that this other job pays. I don't even know if I'll be living in this area in the next 5 years, and building the type of spa I want will not go well down here anyway. I may just be better off working at Pat's, getting my bills paid off, saving some money, then getting out of dodge.What do you all think? Does this place sound like it's too demanding, too strict? Or does it sound like a good opportunity?

 

[Andrew T]

I think you could hack it there, but more important to consider are the intangibles that having your own practice affords you:  freedoms, etc. Can you put them on hold while you put your nose to the grind?About the 'no compete'. I have heard many times over that they are many times illegal, and most often very difficult to enforce. Do you feel that this nazi-owner would stand up to a bit of negotiation? That person might very well respect you for being a strong personality yourself! Just because in the past, they have only donme it 'one way' doesn't mean that they might try it out during their 3 month IC/trial run. And that brings up another point, J,... its your option too after 3 months! You won't be in actual servitude!Are the physical working conditions at "Pat's" doable? Is the pay scale enough to keep you away from turning bitter?It really sounds like I'm actually sympathetic to 'Pat', and in a way I am. I love tough business personalities. You always know where you stand with them. (personal tangeant here, but...) There's no room for crying & gossip, etc in my business picture.Why don't you look into it, and take things from there? Whether you find it positive or negative, you'll have a new view about your private practice.Good luck, J.Jill/Sagetherapist

 

[TOOT]

She can have in the contract that you can not work for a competitor but she can not keep you from earning a living in chosen profession.  So you can still work as a therapist but may not be able to work for someone within x miles of her business.

 

[Michaela]

Sage, I too am more on Pat's side on this deal, as I like her style of business. It may or may not be the best for me, but I would like to at least try the 3-month deal (while keeping my office, she doesn't have to know) and see if I like it there. If I do, I'll probably stay and save money, while leaving my office. If not, I'll continue to practice at my office.My teacher's complaint is that she doesn't feel 'Pat' treats therapists fairly. The commission split is 40/60, where the therapist keeps 40%, but she can also guarantee clientele, no monthly rent, and all I'd have to provide myself is creme. I think that's a fair trade. Teacher also doesn't like that most of the time the therapist doesn't get the tips and are just not told that a tip was given, the clients cannot request a certain therapist but they are assigned one (so there's no way to build a clientele that way), and many more complaints that have escaped me at the moment.Complaints that i've heared from fellow MTs that have worked there are that 'Pat' will sign therapists up for volunteer work without asking the therapist, and if said therapist doesn't do the work, their punishment is 'Pat' taking them off the books for a week. Now, this is what I've heared from an MT that worked there. I'm not sure if she is making it up because she doesn't like "Pat's" or if it's actually true.BJB-LMP, I'm pretty certain that's the reason she has the no-compete clause, because of the moony therapists. I really don't think she has the legal right, like Randy said, to stop me from working in the profession altogether, yet for competitors. I've had to sign a no-compete clause before in the computer industry, and it was stating that I couldn't work with their competitors for 6 months. As for turnover rate, it is high. She's constantly gaining and losing therapists, and I think that's another reason she has the 3-month IC trial, so that she doesn't have to get stuck with paying taxes on someone who isn't going to stay long. She's very bright for doing that.The main thing I'd like to do is work maybe 4 hours of massage there in the morning and have the rest of the day to try to build my own business apart from hers.  I don't want to end up saying "I have to go to work today" in a negative way. I'd like to continue saying "I get to go to work today" and be happy and fulfilled with my career. I've already sent in the resume and am waiting to hear back from her. If I don't hear anything by this afternoon, I'll be giving her a call to see if I can schedule an interview.

 

[paintedrain2]

May have a job opportunity.

It sounds like you have already made your mind up.so I say go for it.but i do have to say this pats placeis difinetly ( from what you have said) running their bus. into that shady color of grey when it comes to legalitys.but that being said I wish you all the best go with your gut it never lies

 

[syrenarc]

Well, I guess I'll be the one that says I'd never work for Pat's. But then I feel that I learn best about having a business if I'm pro-active in ALL aspects of running/maintaining my own business. I need to learn what does and what doesn't work in trying to build up clientele, which means I need to go out and try and get the clients instead of letting someone else do it for me. I also worked too hard and spent too much money on my schooling for someone to come and take part of (in your case, majority) my hard-earned income. After doing that for the first summer out of school, I vowed never to work for another Massage business again.It's ok that some of my income is going towards advertising and products fees, because at least I have some control of outgoing and incoming.Also, I have found that going into business with one or more colleagues (sharing office space, sharing advertising expenses, sharing product expenses) is much more beneficial because I maintain some control and my input is valued as theirs is to me. Not only can we benefit one another with bringing to the table ideas, services, products, but we also learn from one another what can hurt or help a business. Granted, doing it this way means more responsibility for the business side (i.e., medical benefits, taxes, etc.), but I look at it as a learning experience, gaining knowledge that will help make me a well-rounded person...and no, I don't mean physically!   : ;DheheBe well,Jen

 

[P6590]

Sounds like a great opportunity.As someone often viewed as a "Pat", I can give you a slightly different view of things.Your teacher illustrates - to me - what is wrong with the business teaching in massage school - the fascination with the "split". One should not be concerned with what anyone else gets paid for their efforts. If one is satisfied with what they are being offered, then one should take the job. Period.Junior lawyers - who have a lot more invested in their careers than bodyworkers - get billed out at 5 - 6 times what they are paid. Would a massage instructor consider that "Fair"? I do - they still make 6 figures!A spa owner invests tens of thousands of dollars, month after month into their business. When you are ready to do so, then you can expect 60% of someone else's efforts. I think Pat is being very fair if you can get 4 -6 appointments per day.As for the non-compete, Pat is merely protecting herself against unfair competition. No, not all competition is fair. A therapist who goes to work, takes client information, treatment ideas, names of fellow workers, promotional ideas, prices, etc and then sets up shop in the same market is trying to short-cut the hard work Pat put into building the business. It happens all the time.  Just as you think she will never find out about your chair events, other therapists think she will never find out client info was taken, etc etc.I have fired twice as many therapists for violating clauses of our non-compete than I have for all other reasons combined.Non-competes are completely legal, particularly if you are an employee, but still enforceable against ICs.As for negotiations - I would neither engage in them with a therapist nor think highly of them for trying. I would think of them as thinking they are better than the other therapists and above the systems put into place for everyone's protection and benefit. I don;t need any "stars" who expect more pay, special scheduling needs or exceptions. The rules exist for a reason. Should you choose to abide by them, there is money to be made with no effort outside of doing the massages. If not, then you can make your own path to success.Good luck

 

[One More Year Nick! (2)]

May have a job opportunity.

Sounds like a great opportunity.

As someone often viewed as a "Pat", I can give you a slightly different view of things.

Your teacher illustrates - to me - what is wrong with the business teaching in massage school - the fascination with the "split". One should not be concerned with what anyone else gets paid for their efforts. If one is satisfied with what they are being offered, then one should take the job. Period.

Junior lawyers - who have a lot more invested in their careers than bodyworkers - get billed out at 5 - 6 times what they are paid. Would a massage instructor consider that "Fair"? I do - they still make 6 figures!

A spa owner invests tens of thousands of dollars, month after month into their business. When you are ready to do so, then you can expect 60% of someone else's efforts. I think Pat is being very fair if you can get 4 -6 appointments per day.

I agree that the 40/60 split is fair. Many places around here have a 60/40 split where the therapist gets 60%, but 'Pat's' is the only place that I know of that will only require me to show up to work and provide my own creme. Others will require that I wash / bring my own linens, table, etc. and cannot guarantee a clientelle. In the work aspect of it, I think it will be a great opportunity. My only holdback is the no-compete clause.

As for the non-compete, Pat is merely protecting herself against unfair competition. No, not all competition is fair. A therapist who goes to work, takes client information, treatment ideas, names of fellow workers, promotional ideas, prices, etc and then sets up shop in the same market is trying to short-cut the hard work Pat put into building the business.

It happens all the time.  Just as you think she will never find out about your chair events, other therapists think she will never find out client info was taken, etc etc.

I have fired twice as many therapists for violating clauses of our non-compete than I have for all other reasons combined.

Non-competes are completely legal, particularly if you are an employee, but still enforceable against ICs.

As for negotiations - I would neither engage in them with a therapist nor think highly of them for trying. I would think of them as thinking they are better than the other therapists and above the systems put into place for everyone's protection and benefit. I don;t need any "stars" who expect more pay, special scheduling needs or exceptions. The rules exist for a reason. Should you choose to abide by them, there is money to be made with no effort outside of doing the massages. If not, then you can make your own path to success.

Good luck

I also agree about trying to undermine her business. And she may or may not agree that my intentions are good. I am merely wanting to work for her while building my own business apart from her. I am in a completely different city, about 20 minutes drive away from her business.  I have no interest in taking client information, phone numbers, giving them personal business cards, or even mentioning that I have an office outside of 'Pat's'. I find that tacky, and wouldn't want someone doing that to me if I employed them. But what about the year contract? Would you actually expect a therapist NOT to work in a certain area for an entire year after they left your workplace?

 

[Bizz]

how does the no compete actualy read.if your not in the same city it may not affect you.I dont know any judges that would up hold a no compete that has no limit like with in x amount of miles so on.BUT that mean they wouldn't find the rest of that no compete clause acceptable.when in dout have an att. look at it ( just not a junior one )also if you have a three mth. trial  then I don't think the no compete goes into affect until that time is over.but again check with att.and always go with your gut ;D

 

[jackies]

May have a job opportunity.

should say (doesn't mean)sorry ;D

 

[aquaninja]

I'm not so sure I would work at Pat's.  Sounds like Pat's is interested ONLY in Pat.  I work best when it's a 2 way street.  I would look at the high turnover rate as a red flag.  I would also ask specifically about the tips.....find out if that is true that they keep the tips.  I would then check out the legality of that.  Morally.....I would NEVER work for someone who did not give me the tips.  I would also REFUSE to patronize any business if I found out they were keeping the tips from the employee.  And......booking therapists for chair events without asking first and the "punishing" them if they can't do it?  What sort of professionalism is that?  I have been around the block a bit and held different jobs over my lifetime.  I'm at a time in my life that I won't compromise certain expectations.  I've refused a number of jobs and I couldn't be happier.  I have my own office, as well as work for a company that is WONDERFUL to its employees.  I also appreciate employers who are willing to negotiate.  I'm very confident in my skills, abilities, loyalty and work ethic.  Sometimes the situation isn't  what fits my expectations or needs.......so I've asked for whatever I need to make it a good fit for me.  Fortunately, I have found employers who recognize my value and have been willing to work with me.  I have never had any complaints that I wasn't "worth it".  It is not the business of any other employee what I've worked out with my employer either.  To take a hard line and say that everyone is treated the exact same way is a little short-sighted.  We all know that some therapists ARE indeed more qualified or more experienced than others.  Some may bring a unique modality.  Some may bring a LOT of clients with them.  Some may be a whiz at selling retail products.....if that's what the place is into.  A therapist fresh out of school is NOT the same caliber as a therapist in the profession for 5 years with extensive experience in some sort of area that might benefit Pat's business.  I would think the experienced therapist should be given consideration if they want to work every third Saturday or wants to be sure that the clients they are bringing to this establishment CAN request them........what's with that anyway?  I've never heard that you can't request a therapist at a place of business. They couldn't do it at the student clinic at my school....but that's a different story.I won't sign a non-compete clause either.  I was asked to once.  I had some people suggest that I do it and then just not abide by it and said they are hard to enforce.  I won't sign something knowing that I'm not going to live up to it.......not ethically right in my book.  I did some research and the way this particular non-compete was written it was meant to prohibit competition.  As I understand it, non-competes are suppose to be written to prohibit someone from stealing your clients, techniques, etc........at least from the information I researched in my state.  So.......it seemed to me that her contract would have been null and void in a court of law anyway because it was written specifically to prohibit me from practicing my profession anywhere near her business.  It seems to me that Pat doesn't care whether her clients are happy since she won't accommodate requests.  She must not care if her therapists are happy since she won't negotiate and also has a hire turnover rate.  This is a caring and nurturing business........I couldn't work in such a non-caring atmosphere.  But.......to each his own.  You're obviously making your decision with your eyes wide open.

 

[GPA3.88]

May have a job opportunity.

well said KM.something we should never forgetIt does not matter who ownes the office BecauseNone of us owns any of the clients that come to see us or someone eles in the same office.Clients are and always will be able to follow any therapist anywhere, anyplace, anytime

 

[Ulfr Doom Occulta]

May have a job opportunity.

That being saidremember this 40% of something is better than 100% of nothing

 

[lekneppyday]

And remember that all these things said about Pat are hearsay. Seforum.xxxgnant will find his own impression of this person & will make decisions accordingly.Something that always comes up in our discussions... the freedoms versus the hard business line. I have always said that even places like Massage Envy can be admirable business models. They have a certain 'formula', and for those who don't want to eat ramen & turn off their water... its an interesting place to get a pay check & work your chops. (please take that ramen with the grain of salt it was meant to have... I know there's bound to be somebody out there that'll disagree with me. Just don't break my kneecaps! ha)Personally, I think this is one of the most interesting discussions/threads here in a while!I'm very interested in seeing what Seforum.xxxgnant has to say after meeting the urban legend PAT.  Jill/Sagetherapist

 

[Lincoln6]

You are so right Jill......40% of something is better than a 100% of nothing......and if someone needs to get the bills paid.....it's a means to an end.  Seforum.xxxgnant also doesn't seem to be looking at this as a long-term career goal, but merely to help meet a goal.  Obviously, if this Pat has a very busy business......something is going right for her and she's meeting her goals.  Found her market, I guess.  It's good to live in the good ole USA and have CHOICES!  

 

[GeltBesepap]

I'd never sign a non-compete. In my view, that employer is getting well compensated for the opportunity by her major take. There are athletic clubs out there that give you 75%. And if it is true about the tips...that's just slimey. If it were any place worth working for, she would be looking towards offering a good enough situation to keep you, not penalizing as if she owned you. Turnover is big indication of how fair that set up is.There is no such thing as stealing a client. You all know that people chose who they feel comfortable with, and who they feel does the best job for their particular needs. People usually seek you out without your having to notify them, or keep those daybook addresses. Its so seldom about the establishment where they get a  massage, but your hands that mean anything to them. You have a right to have your name in a phone book. If people chose to take the pains to hunt you down, they are exercising their own right of choice.If the establishment had a chance to overwhelm your worth as a therapist, then what would they have to lose? Why would they need the non-compete?Does that employer make clients sign a contract never to get a massage anywhere but there?I doubt that would float...even if they were signed up with something like "Massage Envy"...they always have the right to get additional massage elsewhere, if they so chose.I worked in at least 5 venues simultaneously in Cleveland. Each one went out of their way to offer a least one plum to keep me on board, and some offered more.If any of them had asked for a non-compete, theirs would have been the loss. Primarily, because I had a healthy crowd of high paying regulars who would schedule where ever I was working...so each venue benefited by that.  And of course, they would not have had my services to increase their business, which were additionally successful in promoting and bringing profit to their other services.*lol* sorry if that sounds a little "smug", but we should all value ourselves out there! We can be hard-nosed too! We are doing the sweat work.Just my two cents!...good luck with your meeting, and if you chose to go with it, I hope it works out for you, Seforum.xxx. Gi

 

[anthony f]

Hi, Seforum.xxxg. I posted on the Success topic that success is saying, "I get to go to work." It took a while to get to this place, though. And, I'm thrifty. I give up some material things to love my "job."  Beforehand,  I had? (chose?) to work in a less-than-ideal situation to save money.  I agree with the earlier post that it would be a means to an end, not a long-term situation. I am also wary of the no-compete.  I agree, it's ridiculous. Maybe 20 minutes away is okay?? I have read that ICs choose their own hours. Spending time with your partner on Saturdays seems reasonable. I, personally, would probably compromise and work every other one; I don't know your partner's schedule, so it may be more important for you to have every Sat. off. I would choose accomodating a loving partner over a controlling "boss", unless I was desperate. IMO, if you can tolerate it (and not feel like you're completely selling out), working at Pat's, getting your bills paid off, saving some money, and getting out may be the way to go.And, of course, the tips should go to you. (She'll get the employee's loyalty she deserves).Wish you well.  Let us know, please.

 

[Mayur]

May have a job opportunity.

This post is both interesting and troublesome to me.  I think there is something to be learned from everyone's points of view and all are valid in theory but I think it's so obvious when reading the posts who works in private practice, who works at a spa and who runs a spa.   Seforum.xxxg, that's why I think this decision needs to be your own and based on what you want out of your career.  If what you've told us is true I don't think it "sounds like a great opportunity" to use Relax & Rejuvenate's words.  I think this is the point of view of someone who runs a growing chain of spas and his/her perspective is all business.  In a post not two days ago Seforum.xxxg was trying to figure out ways to get through a slump and continue to build his private practice.  Are we recommending that he throw in the towel and just go work for the machine/at Pat's? Why should we not be concerned with the "split"?  It's how we make our income.  When I worked in marketing consulting I was always concerned with the job function and the split (salary) when interviewing for new positions.  After all, it's why we go to work.  Further, I don't think well run spas should need their owners to invest tens of thousands of dollars per month to keep their doors open.  I would suspect there was some flaw(s) in their operations.  As for the non-compete, they are standard but not to the degree that Seforum.xxxg has explained.  He shouldn't be able to steal clients or work for a direct competitor but if he wants to move across town, open his own shop and fairly advertise it, he shouldn't be threatened to think that he can't by some spa owner who appears to think intimidation is a management style.  As for negotiations, go talk to some of those lawyers you speak of in your post, if they don't negotiate a deal with each new job whether it be higher salary, bigger office or extra vacation days, they are missing point and why in this day and age we don't work for one company for 50 years, get a gold watch and retire anymore.  Competition and negotiation are standard business practices.  In fact, I would think that lawyers are sometimes paid more than other lawyers right out of school based on a host of things like the school they attended (Harvard vs State), grades, male/female (fair or not), etc.   Why shouldn't therapist with varying experience and skillsets negotiate personal deals just like all other business professionals?    Some of my fellow members will say I'm trying to start an argument and should have sent R&R a private message (as is often the case when we disagree here) but I wanted to post this here in the public forum because I feel that R&R's post is meant to hold us down, limit competition and support the Massage Envy's of the world.  Seforum.xxxg, decide what you want to do and where you want to do it and then pursue that course of action with everything you've got.  If you want to be in private practice go for it and if it's work for someone else, then go for that and it'll work for you.  We've all done both or will do both and from every experience you will learn valuable information and continue to grow as a great and powerful therapist.  Good luck.   Joe E.

 

[Eclipse Vancouver]

I have a question : what happens if you don't have a client during a time slot you are scheduled at "Pat's"?     Will Pat guarantee you "X" appointments per day or week?  Most businesses looking for therapists to hire try to appear like they have endless clients and maybe they do.    But, if there are empty slots in your schedule, you may end up twiddling your thumbs instead of doing Deep Tissue with them.   This is time (and money) you will lose, while, if you have no guaranteed wage,  Pat loses nothing (except perhaps employees, who, unfortunately, can often be easily replaced by recent grads like yourself struggling to make a go of it.)      A job can be a good way to get started, but there are many, many exploitive situations out there as well.  If there is a high turnover of therapists at the business there is always a reason why... Just another issue you might want to consider... Best of luck no matter what you choose.  

 

[Pompal 09.]

May have a job opportunity.

I don't know how this would go over... but it seems to me the first three months heavily favors Pat. I understand wanting to protect the spa from fly by night therapists, but it sounds like she sets herself up to lose them anyway. Since you have bills to pay, a 3 month trial period might be ideal. However, I would go into it saying that if after 3 months both you and Pat were satisfied with the arrangement, THEN you would be happy to sign the contract.I would be honest with Pat, saying that you had had poor feedback on her establishment from former employees. While you'd like give her the benefit of the doubt and form your own opinion, you are not willing to sign a contract up front. If this flies, go make some cash (finanacial stress is no fun) and experience what this spa has to offer. Whether it's good or bad, you will learn plenty!Best of luck....Sally